By Paul Semendinger
November 29, 2024
***
Sometimes in the comments we make a lot of points. We discuss and debate some of the points, but we never get to them all.
I made a point the other day that wasn't addressed, so I'll bring it up here now.
There is a line of thinking that for reasons other than performance and ability that the Yankees shouldn't sign Alex Bregman because he cheated in 2017. That line of thinking states that Bregman, a cheater with the 2017 Astros, can never be a Yankee. "He cheated seven years ago so we can never forgive him," the logic basically goes.
I want to dive into that thinking and rationale a bit. I want to understand why there is such a strong stance against Alex Bregman. I want to push back a bit, as well, because, unless I understand this better, it seems that the arguments against Bregman don't hold up to scrutiny.
First, haven't Yankees cheated? Didn't Graig Nettles cork a bat with superballs? Whitey Ford admitted that he doctored the ball. I believe Yogi Berra and Elston Howard helped with that. Derek Jeter once tried to get on base by pretending he was hit by a pitch. (For a very short period, some fans called him "Derek Cheater.") The list, I am sure, goes on and on. (I know for this, some fans will say, "Yes, but I deem that kind of cheating okay." There's a difference between some cheating and other cheapting.")
Second, in regard to the Astros, the MLB investigated the situation and addressed it. People might not be happy with the decision made by Baseball, but the situation was looked into and decided upon. Isn't that the way the justice system works? At what point should or can we move on? Did Bregman continue to cheat? If not, didn't he learn his lesson? Isn't that the way the justice system is supposed to work? At what point can we move on and forgive the player? Never?
Third, the Yankees have had other players from the 2017 Astros on the team. That bridge has already been crossed. Marwin Gonzalez, J.D. Davis, and Cameron Maybin were all Yankees. Maybin, specifically, was popular while he was in New York. Why was it okay for those players to be Yankees? Do we have to assume or pretend that they weren't part of the Astros sign stealing?
Fouth, of note, the Yankees themselves, in that same time period were involved in electronic sign stealing. All of the facts of that case never came out, and no players were named, but it seems very logical that some players fans root or rooted for were involved at some level. The Yankees cheated. That's not in question. Which of our own heroes were involved in that cheating? What if we find out that Aaron Judge took part? Should we demand he be traded? Why the outrage for Bregman, but not the guys on the Yankees?
(Article on the Yankees sign stealing: https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/33808987/what-did-new-york-yankees-do-does-matter-need-know-sign-stealing-letter)
But, none of this is the biggest issue, the one I hope people comment on and where readers share their thinking, logic, and rationale.
If the argument is that Bregman cheated, and because of that, he can never be a Yankee, I have to ask if the same would have been true if Willie Mays had been a free agent, say in 1957. If you were a Yankees fan back then, and if that scandal had been public at the time, would you have said, "NO WAY!" to Willie Mays?
In 1951, Willie Mays was a member of the New York Giants who went to the World Series. Willie was the Rookie of the Year in 1951 for the Giants. The 1951 Giants used electronic means to steal signs to give their batters an advantage. That advantage led to one of the greatest comebacks in baseball history. It seems that the 1951 Giants weren't much different than the 2017 Astros.
(Article on 1951 Giants: https://sabr.org/journal/article/focus-on-the-giants-cheating-scandal-of-1951/)
It's virtually inconceivable that Willie Mays did not benefit from that cheating. The Giants stole signs to help their batters. And they won games because of it... all the way to the World Series.
So, to all those who don't want Alex Bregman because he cheated, I have to ask, if this was 1957, and there was free agancy back then, would you also say that the Yankees shouldn't sign Willie Mays? (Or, if one is going to argue that Mays only hurt National League teams - the Dodgers mostly - then assume you're a Dodgers fan in 1957. If there was free agency, should the Dodgers have refused to sign Willie Mays in 1957?)
Also, in anticipation of readers trying to avoid the direct question and take the discussion in a different direction, (I can see the comments now: "The Yankees didn't necessarily need Mays from 1957 to 1964. They won without him." (Truth be told, they didn't win the World Series in 1957, 1959, 1960, 1963, or 1964, but I get the point.)) If one wishes to make that argument, it is certain that the Yankees could have used Mays from 1965 through 1971. If one wants to go down that path focusing on 1957, would you have not signed Willie Mays in 1965 (he was the MVP that year) because he was on a team that cheated? (From 1965 to 1971, Mays batted .287/193/566 with 150 OPS+ and he earned 45.4 WAR.)
Bottom line, I'm trying to see what the difference is, if there even is one, between Willie Mays and the fact that he was on a team that cheated, and Alex Bregman and tha fans perceptions of both. I assume most fans would say, "Yes, I want Willie Mays Of course I'd want Willie Mays" But, if so, why would those same fans say, "No Bregman. He cheated." What is the difference?
Despite the scandal surrounding the “51 Giants, I probably would have signed Willie. He could have battled it out with Hector Lopez for the left field job.
He would get pass because the Yankees beat the Giants in the ‘51 Series. Of course, if the Yanks would have lost to them he could never, ever be able to redeem himself to the point of being worthy to wear the pinstripes. He once played on a team that may have gamed the system, We could forgive that. But if that team beat the Yankees? That is an unforgivable sin. No true Yankee fan could root for a guy like that.
Will un-plant tongue from cheek now.
I'm of the opinion that the Cheaters were Rewarded with the World Series Trophy for cheating ???!?
If you were proven to have cheated, you should have to Relinquish the Trophy !! Also possible Lifetime Bans, as in the Black Sox ordeal ?? No ??, I mean a regular season game, and getting caught with a scratched ball as a pitcher, or Corked bat as in Nettles case, is Very different than Cheating to prove World #1 Team, seems wrong, to me... every player that took PEDs, basically cheated, so what is the discipline for that ??, to me the Punishment has never fit the crime, in most cases,....
a good argument for accepting dishonesty from a disreputable player because a team has, at an earlier time, accepted dishonesty from other disreputable players.
well argued
i wont opine as to the ethical content of the thing, but will instead confine my comment toward asking whether
if one accepts that it's acceptable to recruit and encourage known miscreants
in order to reap an advantage from their dishonest actions
is it still acceptable to recruit and encourage known miscreants when there is no great need or advantage to doing so
given that there are other players as good or better who are not known to be dishonest?
it's one thing to pay for Alex Rodriguez in his prime
it's quite a…
i have no significant disagreement with anything that you said
except- you seem to be saying that the yankees did basically the same thing or something very similar to what the Astros did
in actuality, I think the Yankees may have been scrutinized and investigated harder than the Astros were and they were found UNWORTHY of any punishment
I would say I am in agreement with you that these things are in the past and I would just as soon leave them there- along that line of thinking I no longer recall much of the specifics of the Yankee situation and dont particularly want to
so remind me if I am wrong, but I believe they were accused of questionable…
don't want Bregman but it has nothing to do with the cheating incident which is in the past and should not be a consideration at this point. Bregman is on the wrong side of 30 and will want big money on a long-term deal. I don't think he would be a good investment for the Yankees unless he would accept a shorter term deal - which he has no reason to do.